?

Log in

Previous Entry | Next Entry

beth_bernobich wrote an agentlove post in response to another Agents are Evil! essay. Coincidentally, that same day I found myself in an Amazon chat on self-publishing wherein I was told that self-publishing is the future, publishers won't buy new work, and the industry hasn't changed much in 150 years so if it was good enough for Charles Dickens*, it's good enough for us!

This has been a long month, and I find myself less patient than usual when people splash stupid all over my screen. Publishing hasn't changed in 150 years? Heck, look how much it's changed in the past 15, or even the past 5. Print on demand, ebooks, Google deciding copyright is more of a guideline than a rule, the decline of independent bookstores, the bankruptcy of a major distributor.... Look, I've got nothing against self-publishing. Goldfish Dreams was put out by a PoD press, and is now essentially self-published over on Fictionwise. (At 30% off today, by the way.) I just get frustrated by ... not ignorance, but the aggressive stupidity.

It's the same sort of stupid that Beth linked to, the kind that leads people to proclaim that agents (or editors, or publishers) are Evil, that they're stifling truly original and genius works and seeking instead third-rate formulaic hacks, that they're destroying literature and crushing the true artists.

Agents and editors want books that people will read and buy. Agents who pick books people won't buy end up going out of business. (Or they become scammers and start ripping off would-be authors, but that's another rant.) Usually the "Agents are mean poodoo-heads" rants come from writers who have themselves been rejected. So let's look at two possible scenarios for why Author Bob gets rejected.

1. Bob's book is truly brilliant and revolutionary. This book would change lives, and would sell millions of copies. It's a powerful book, and readers would love it if only those self-serving agents weren't working so hard to "ensure that quality fiction never hits [the publisher's] desk." Alas, Bob's chances have been crushed by those enemies of literature, the agents (or editors, depending on the rant.)

2. Bob's book isn't as good as he thinks it is.
Good books do get rejected, and sometimes agents and editors make mistakes. An agent takes on a book and a client for two reasons: because they love the book(s), and because they think those book(s) will sell. If either of those factors are missing, you're probably going to get rejected. Get over it. I know writers tend to have supersized egos, but if you think getting rejected means the agents and editors of the world are conspiring to crush literature, then we're looking at a whole new level of egomania.

My editor at DAW rocks. She's brilliant when it comes to helping me improve my books. She and the other editor at DAW are good enough at deciding what to buy and what to reject that they've kept a major publisher in business for years. She's also one of the nicest people I've talked to. She's given me steadily increasing advances for my books. She's hooked me up with some great cover artists. She loves Jig the goblin and my princesses.

My agent kicks ass too, and I say that even though he rejected one of my earlier books. I probably could have sold the latest princess book to DAW without his help, but he negotiated a better royalty structure that I never would have considered. He sells the books overseas and probably triples the amount I earn on each book. He contacts publishers to remind them when checks are overdue so that I can do things like keep up on the mortgage payments. Plus he springs for pizza when we're in Chicago.

They're not the enemy. There's no conspiracy. Writing is hard, publishing is a business, and it ain't personal unless and until you try to make it so.

----
*See here if you want my rant on self-publishing "success" stories.



Reading
Nightmare, by Steven Harper
Amazon | Mysterious Galaxy
 Writing
Red Hood's Revenge


Comments

( 53 comments — Leave a comment )
Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>
pnkrokhockeymom
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:11 pm (UTC)
I think it's been way to long since I told you how much I think you rock! Pls allow me to purchase you some sort of delicious beverage at Penguicon.
jimhines
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:18 pm (UTC)
::Smile:: Thanks! I just hope I have a free minute to actually consume said beverage. The panel schedule is a little nuts this year. Should be fun, though!
(no subject) - pnkrokhockeymom - Apr. 20th, 2009 02:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
barbhendee
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:13 pm (UTC)
Hi Jim,

I adore my agent and my editor. They are both awesome.
jimhines
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:17 pm (UTC)
Most of them are, as far as I can tell. There are a handful I wouldn't want to work with, but that's because they're human. Some humans are jerks. But most of the folks I've met in the industry have been great!
agilebrit
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:24 pm (UTC)
Having read chapter one of the work in question, I'm going with Option 2.

Seriously, this person has a 112-word sentence in the narrative for no literary reason I can see. I mean, yeah, I've got a character who runs off at the mouth and the brain on occasion all the time, because his brain goes a bazillion miles an hour and he Won't. Shut. Up, but even he isn't that wordy. Also, chicklit is chicklit, and labelling it "lit" doesn't mean it is.

*cough* Not that I'm all over the wank report or anything.

Also, said author's gratuitous swipe at genre fiction was...unappreciated. And when the author "clarified" and said "Oh, I meant people like Stephanie Meyer--I'd love to write like Anne Rice"--er, that didn't help. Not to mention the fact that SMeyer (say what you will about the quality of the writing) has managed to tap into something in teen girl psyche, and wouldn't we all love to have her sales?
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - agilebrit - Apr. 20th, 2009 02:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jimhines - Apr. 20th, 2009 02:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - melissajm - Apr. 20th, 2009 09:55 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - aulus_poliutos - Apr. 20th, 2009 05:55 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - agilebrit - Apr. 20th, 2009 06:56 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
jimhines
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:38 pm (UTC)
Wait, who's going to slap you, and what is it I'm doing that may or may not be on purpose?

Agreed on the need for good editors. My books aren't perfect by a long shot, but some of the things that would have slipped through without my editor's "gentle feedback" to show me where I had gone brain-damaged.... If I ever start to become one of those writers who refuses to allow anyone to edit my precious words, my wife has standing orders to kick my ass.
(no subject) - agilebrit - Apr. 20th, 2009 02:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
suricattus
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:28 pm (UTC)
yes. This. Well-said, and thank you for saving me the need to rant when i can now just send people here. :-)


My editors are both good, talented peoples (okay, I trained one, so I have to say that) and my agent has helped make my career into a better, stronger, more able to survive dry times thing. They are occasionally evil in a good way, but they are never ever conspiring against the writer. Quite the contrary.

(Publishers, on the other hand.... )
jimhines
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:30 pm (UTC)
Coincidentally, weren't you the editor for Nightmare, which I just started reading? I've heard good things about your work as an editor too...
(no subject) - suricattus - Apr. 20th, 2009 02:40 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - spiziks - Apr. 21st, 2009 02:28 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jimhines - Apr. 21st, 2009 11:31 am (UTC) - Expand
raisinfish
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:56 pm (UTC)
Thanks for saying this.

Also, editors/agents, like people, have preferences. I know people who have wildly different ideas than I do of what makes a good book. So it stands to reason that if you're rejected by an editor (or two, or three) they might just have very different tastes.

Or you might need to revise. And revise. And revise.

I'm going back to revising, now.
jimhines
Apr. 20th, 2009 03:00 pm (UTC)
Yes! One of the most fascinating things for me was to read agent blogs where they talk about books they rejected that went on to sell and do well. So the agent went back and read the published book to see if they missed something, but decided, "Nope, I'd still reject this one." Even though it sold well, the love piece wasn't there. Just wasn't the right book for that agent.
(Anonymous)
Apr. 20th, 2009 02:58 pm (UTC)
Super post,Jim. All I can say is hear hear!

Kristen B.
(Deleted comment)
bondo_ba
Apr. 20th, 2009 03:35 pm (UTC)
Thanks for bringing a little sanity back to this whole thing. Let the people who hate the system dish out their own cash to become self-published. No one will knock them for it.

Agents have to choose among a huge pile of prospects - it's only to be expected that some of the work they reject will be good. A lot of it will be bad, though! The good stuff will eventually sell somewhere, and the bad... Well, maybe we're better off if these writers get discouraged.
(no subject) - ext_182300 - Apr. 21st, 2009 12:18 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
tammy_moore
Apr. 20th, 2009 04:31 pm (UTC)
I just love the arrogance that assumes that literary agents have it out for...YOU. Specifically YOU. It's kind of an interesting world view really. Every three years all the agents in the world dust out their Agent-o-tron stand-ins, gather up their never-ending supply of rejection slips and go to Switzerland for their Agenty AGM. The last order of business before they all retire to the bar is to pick which writer they will crush over the next three years.

...the waiters at that ski lodge still talk about the time the same writer got picked three AGMs in a row. Poor Anne Squilda. She found her way to the lodge in the end tried to propiate them by burning her first-born manuscript and making it into martinis for them.

She never made it out of the lodge alive.
aulus_poliutos
Apr. 20th, 2009 04:24 pm (UTC)
This conspiracy thing is getting old, really. ;)

I know some historical fiction writers who self publish because they write books about some really obscure 7th century king of Mercia or something, not because they think there's a conspiracy. They are just realistic about the industry, and they know the need of editing a book and getting outside opinions. Also, historical fiction is more likely to get reviewed even when self published, so I can see why some writers go that way (and the books I read were not bad).

Personally, I will try the tradional route first, but in case I'll catch a bunch of those, 'I like the book but it won't sell'-rejections, I will have a look at Lulu.com. But I won't blame the industry for the fact I may write books that are too exotic for the market.
cathellisen
Apr. 20th, 2009 04:28 pm (UTC)
Why would agents purposefully try and stop good work from being published? It makes no sense.

It took me a long time to secure an agent because my writing was crap, simple as that. With every book I got a little better at my craft, until finally it was up to standard, and had enough of a voice to make people go ...hmm yeah, I'll have a look at that.

If four years ago I'd decided that the problem lay with the agents hating on my genius, I'd still be writing the same tedious, badly strung-together junk.
mroctober
Apr. 20th, 2009 04:50 pm (UTC)
As someone who has had some really bad experiences at the hands of agents, I can understand the urge to bad mouth them. Agents are human, after all, and just as prone to making comments that are cold and harsh and detrimental to a writer's psyche as a parent, spouse, or editor.

Honestly, it has taken me years to come back to viewing them as Chaotic Neutral.
dr_phil_physics
Apr. 20th, 2009 05:36 pm (UTC)
The fact is rejection IS personal -- it's just not about the author. Editors are people and therefore they have tastes and expectations and hopefully some savvy notions of what will actually sell. I want their opinion of my work and am willing to accept the good and the bad from my point of view.

You know what happens when I get rejected? Yeah, it goes out again.

Big bad conspiracy against YOUR literary writing? Guess again. And do a quick check on whether your writing is, in fact, literary. If not even literate.

Dr. Phil

P.S. And Jim? Part of your crazy Penguicon schedule is my fault. I namedropped you along with GoH Wil Wheaton and his Penguicon minion John Scalzi while proposing a panel topic and they accepted it. (grin)
jimhines
Apr. 20th, 2009 07:32 pm (UTC)
No worries. I'll either have a blast running around like a manic ferret at the con, or else I'll explode by Sunday. One way or another, it should be entertaining.
txtriffidranch
Apr. 20th, 2009 05:38 pm (UTC)
Sadly, it's not aggressive stupidity. It's complete denial. I spent years with the terminal cases, who'd bitch about how the sort of work they'd write was being stifled, and I'd discover that it isn't being stifled because they weren't bothering to write it in the first place. Let these twerps bitch to each other, because every minute they're busy whining and crying about the great Conspiracy To Keep Precious Snowflakes Under The Hell of Da Man is another minute where they aren't defecating in some poor editor's slush pile.

And as for your two potential rejection scenarios, I no longer advocate using Occam's Razor to ascertain why a book got rejected. True, you have incompetence, arrogance, and malevolence in publishing, but no more than in any other human endeavor. These days, I just settle for waving Occam's Razor over my head and screaming "Blood and souls for my lord Arioch!": I have the hair for it, and it gets a much better response as the recipients run away screaming.
delkytlar
Apr. 20th, 2009 06:05 pm (UTC)
You'll never convince the true Wannabes that the system is not out to get them, Jim. I heard a great quote on an old episode of Everybody Loves Raymond the other night that went something like this: "You know, every year they publish lots of books that suck. And yours got rejected. It must REALLY suck."
jimhines
Apr. 20th, 2009 07:31 pm (UTC)
::Grin:: Goblin Quest got rejected more than 30 times. I have 30x as much SUCK as those other books!
(no subject) - melissajm - Apr. 20th, 2009 10:00 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jjschwabach - Apr. 21st, 2009 01:26 am (UTC) - Expand
david_de_beer
Apr. 20th, 2009 07:04 pm (UTC)
A lot of Charles Dickens work was serialized in newspapers, as was the vogue back then, which both explains the odd way his books read as well as why he was so popular.
This is based on the assumption that I'm understanding your opening paragraph correctly -- someone on Amazon claimed that Dickens self-published so it's the way to go?

dr_phil_physics
Apr. 20th, 2009 07:20 pm (UTC)
Since the industry hasn't changed much in 150 years, the proof is all those novels you read serialized in today's newspapers which then go on to be self-published. Because everyone knows to look to today's vibrant and chock full of original content newspapers for their break-out literary stars.

Dickens, of course, was paid by the word and every issue of a newspaper with a serialized Dickens novel which DIDN'T contain the last chapter meant there'd be another issue with a built-in audience.

Dr. Phil
(no subject) - david_de_beer - Apr. 20th, 2009 08:04 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - jimhines - Apr. 20th, 2009 07:30 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - david_de_beer - Apr. 20th, 2009 07:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
windsong5
Apr. 20th, 2009 07:27 pm (UTC)
Amen! I think sometimes that people see what they want to see, even if that's not what's really there.
(Deleted comment)
dr_phil_physics
Apr. 21st, 2009 01:12 am (UTC)
Yes. Chicago takes their pizza seriously. We need to know if your agent REALLY likes you or not. (grin)

Dr. Phil
snapes_angel
Apr. 20th, 2009 08:06 pm (UTC)
There's only one reason I'd want to go in to self-publishing of any kind, and that's to have samples of my writing "out there". Granted, that is a nebulous concept, but... I've been debating doing something with Lulu.com and previously published odds and ends that are out of print, from different sources. I have the rights (even though I'm a lefty). I think part of the reason for that to, is to have a back-up copy, in case something happens to the original sources.

A lot of good books get self-published, and I always wonder why those were either rejected, or why the people felt the need to self-publish thbeir work.
cathschaffstump
Apr. 20th, 2009 08:11 pm (UTC)
They're not the enemy. There's no conspiracy. Writing is hard, publishing is a business, and it ain't personal unless and until you try to make it so.

People see conspiracies often. Ever since I became The Man (TM) at work, even the teachers I supervise thought I was trying to keep them from getting a raise. (Buh? Didn't I tell you about the inequality, and encourage you to go to the adjunct advisory board? Yes, that was me, not Deep Throat!) You can think you're trying to be friendly and accessible, and not be seen that way. No one was more surprised about my Machiavellian tendencies than myself...

There's also this: in the U.S., we have an entitlement culture. You think you DESERVE things. You COULD be a very good writer who doesn't break in, and that doesn't fit your sense of what you are entitled to. Well, sure, it can happen. Even in this best case scenario, even if your book is gold, you don't deserve anything. Unfortunate, but true.

I won't review why some writers get published and some don't. It's not an entire crap shoot. However, a lot of it IS the random chance of your story meeting the right person at the right time. Authors can't do anything about that. Authors have to make peace with this. Control what can be controlled. Be zen about what can't. No one promised anyone anything in life, ever.

A writer also doesn't have to play this game. As someone in the linked-to article proposes, there is self-publishing. If work is truly great, chances are good that it will get noticed. If the system isn't working for you, a truly creative person will find a way to change the playing field. Think laterally, rather than lamentably.

Authors should know it takes a village to make a good work.
Even a writer as good as *I* am (sniff!) needs to be pushed to produce my best. (Inherently I am a lazy type A, and live to check things off a mental list.) Perhaps we should be aware of this, and perhaps we would be more successful as we submit our work.

I can say all this as a published small presser who doesn't have an agent, because the universe hasn't promised me anything. I am lucky, as many writers are, to have some talent in writing, and some motivation to do it. All I can do is write, study, and improve. Maybe I'll get further in the future, but if I don't, no one promised me anything. At least I'm doing something I enjoy.

Blinding talent isn't the only pre-req for this job. Temperament, patience, modesty, and most importantly, persistence will probably land you an agent or an editor. Even if you are the most brilliant writer, without those other abilities, and more than I have listed, you will probably not be suited to cranking out books. And unfortunately, things don't always turn out as we hope.

Blaming the system for the whims of fate is crazy. Get out there, write another book, and try again.
jjschwabach
Apr. 20th, 2009 10:19 pm (UTC)
I have had many people tell me, "You have to know someone."
To which I can only respond, "Really? I didn't." Every time I sell something to an editor for the first time, so far, at least, it has been an editor I have not met previously. I've met many of them since. And I've now met enough editors at cons that chances are high that at some point, I will indeed sell a story to an editor I already know. But...

Agents are harder. There are crooked agents out there. There are also agents who simply don't like what you've written. One agent who rejected me said that there was nothing wrong with the writing, she simply didn't like that particular story, and therefore felt she wouldn't to a good job of representing me. Which I respect. How could she sell it for me if she didn't love it?
margaret_y
Apr. 20th, 2009 11:55 pm (UTC)
I had a close friend. We're not friends anymore. I had to finally cut the relationship off because this person was convinced this conspiracy theory was true, and I had to hear about it all the time. She self-published her books. I did not. The final straw was when I got my (very good) agent. Then she told me I was selling out and not being true to my real artist.

Mmm...buh-bye.
jjschwabach
Apr. 21st, 2009 12:01 am (UTC)
Bad her. She gets my Swamp Thang look.

I want an agent, but I do want an agent who likes my writing style.
burger_eater
Apr. 21st, 2009 12:01 am (UTC)
They're not the enemy. There's no conspiracy. Writing is hard, publishing is a business, and it ain't personal unless and until you try to make it so.

Hah! You reveal yourself as part of the conspiracy!!

Game, set, match!
namelessarchon
Apr. 21st, 2009 12:19 am (UTC)
Hey Jim,
As always this is one of my favorites to hear you rant on, and you were very close to the vest on this one even. You know I don't agree with you 50% of the time, but in this case I can say you are dead on in my book.

Oh, and Happy Birthday!
la_marquise_de_
Apr. 21st, 2009 11:05 am (UTC)
Yay for editorlove. I too love my editor. She hangs the moon.
Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>
( 53 comments — Leave a comment )

Profile

Snoopy
jimhines
Jim C. Hines
Website

My Books

Tags

Latest Month

June 2017
S M T W T F S
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
252627282930 
Powered by LiveJournal.com
Designed by Tiffany Chow