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Damsels Causing Distress

By now, I imagine many of you have seen Publishers Weekly’s roundup of the ten very best books of 2009, a list which just happens to only include male authors.  Sure, the girls made it into some of the secondary lists, but the ten best?  All boys.

I would also check out Lizzie Skurnick’s response at Politics Daily, which included this bit from PW: “We wanted the list to reflect what we thought were the top 10 books of the year with no other consideration . . . We ignored gender and genre and who had the buzz . . . It disturbed us when we were done that our list was all male.”

So here’s my question: What should PW have done when they realized they had come up with an all-male list?

We pause now for the predictable response.

“You keep your quotas off of us, you damn, dirty PC police!”

Right.  Moving on, the thing I don’t get is that the folks at PW say they were disturbed by this, but they don’t appear to have done anything about it.  Did they ever take that next step and ask, “Why, if we were truly ignoring gender, did we still come up with an all-male list?  We’re talking less than a 1 in 1000 chance of this happening purely at random*, which suggests maybe we weren’t as gender-blind as we thought.”

Our own biases are hard to face.  It’s easier and safer to turn the blame outward or make excuses:

  • It’s just one list, and we have girls in some of the others!
  • Maybe more men published good books this year.
  • It’s the story that counts, not the gender/race/etc. of the author.
  • Women helped to make this list, so it can’t be sexist!
  • Maybe women should be proactive and start writing better books!

I could go on and on listing reasons that basically amount to “It’s not my fault,” and “I’m not sexist!”  We could spend the whole month debunking most of those reasons.

But in the end, Publishers Weekly published this list.  They were aware enough to recognize something wasn’t right, and I give them props for that.  But that’s much easier than actually taking responsibility.  We can say, “Oh look, a list of all men.  That’s gonna be a problem, because those bloggers are going to raise hell that we didn’t include a token woman.

Or we can stop making excuses and try being accountable for our own choices and behaviors.  We can say, “I tried to be  gender-blind about this, but ended up with an all-male list.  Huh.  I didn’t consciously try to pick only male authors, but maybe I’m not as gender-blind or unbiased as I thought.

Nobody’s asking for quotas.  Me, I’m just asking people to grow up and take responsibility for their choices.  Yes, we’re talking about an industry-wide issue that affects publishing on many different levels.  But the industry is made up of individuals, and every one of us, myself included, has our own biases and prejudices. We can ignore them and make the same tired excuses, or we can face them and try to do better.

We all mess up.  I just wish more folks would own up to it when it happens.


*Assuming a 50/50 breakdown of male and female authors.

Mirrored from Jim C. Hines.

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[info]sigelphoenix wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:17 pm (UTC)
Thanks for this breakdown - particularly the reminder that you can believe that you're unbiased, but still perpetuate the bias unconsciously. Too many people seem to think that "I don't want to be biased" or "I try not to be biased" equals "I'm not biased." We need to acknowledge, as you do here, that intent doesn't preclude failure, especially with something as ingrained as cultural biases.
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:23 pm (UTC)
Yes. I'm so tired of hearing intention used as defense. I didn't *intend* to be sexist, so it doesn't count.

And I think it's good that we're generally not being consciously or deliberately discriminatory. But so much of this is learned habit, it's the stuff that we don't think about because it's so automatic. Then we get so defensive that someone dared to accuse us of being sexist that we never make the effort to examine our behavior and really think about all of those underlying assumptions and habits.
[info]wendigomountain wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:22 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure why there is a problem with this list? Other than all the books look like they suck ass anyway. If I was a woman with a contender to be on the list, I'd breathe a sigh of relief I didn't make the cut. SSDD.

And when, oh lordy WHEN, are publishers going to realize that these meta books about writers and journalists are getting really damned old. It's amateurish, it's lazy, and it's a one-trick pony among fledgling novelists. If I was an editor, I would say, "Neat story about a writer. Now, why don't you write another one which actually uses some imagination. Hmm?"
[info]cathshaffer wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:35 pm (UTC)
Oh, god, yes. I won't ready any books about writers. Ugh.
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[info]suricattus wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:29 pm (UTC)
I understand that sometimes the stats are what the stats are. But if the editors did realize that this was not a Good Thing or a desirable thing, then they should have made a point of it when the lists were realized and made a Learning Experience out of it, rather than whistling past the graveyard.

Also "we ignored who had the buzz?" Oh, bullshit. Unless they were doing a blind testing, which is impossible with books for obvious reasons, they were influenced by the buzz, by the conversations, by their own preferences... that's why it's branded list, because it reflects the tastes of that brad's editors. Nothing wrong with that, but that means owning up to the biases that come with said tastes and said brand...

[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:40 pm (UTC)
Thank you once again for putting it so succinctly after I babbled on for 500 words or so :-)
(no subject) - [info]suricattus - Nov. 9th, 2009 06:47 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]mtlawson wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:36 pm (UTC)
Blech.

The only book I'd consider getting from that list is the Age of Wonder, and that's being kind.

This reminds me of the top ten lists you'd find in Games magazine or any other publication where they fail to provide details on how the list was selected. Trying to avoid hype and hoopla and gender and genre isn't the same as actually doing it, and if you fail to put your selection criteria on display then you ought not be taken seriously.
[info]skylarker wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:43 pm (UTC)
It does make me wonder what criteria they were using, and whether the criteria tend towards factors that male writers tend to evince more strongly. Do they favor more overt physical conflict? Less touchy-feeling content? Car chases? What is it that they think makes for the best novels?
[info]barbarienne wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:51 pm (UTC)
May I respectfully point out that your criteria here for defining male-written books are a stereotype. Can I please assume that you were being tongue-in-cheek when you said "Do they favor more overt physical conflict? Less touchy-feeling content? Car chases?"

(NB: I am female and I write stories chock full of overt physical conflict. I loves me my fight scenes!)
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[info]jhetley wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:43 pm (UTC)
Perhaps the compilers of that list are biased against good books?
[info]rosefox wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:20 pm (UTC)
Ouch, Jim.
(no subject) - [info]jhetley - Nov. 9th, 2009 07:00 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]rosefox - Nov. 9th, 2009 08:11 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]orlacarey wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:45 pm (UTC)
So if they ignored gender and buzz and all that other stuff I'm really interested in knowing what their evaluation critera was. I doubt it was sales. Was it three guys sitting in a room deciding which books they liked this year? And if so how many books did they read to come to that conclusion?

It's all well and good to say "we ignored such and such" but if your list turns out all male (or all female or all dogs for that matter) then you need to figure out what it is about your evaluation that's influencing the results.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:57 pm (UTC)
I believe PW's core editorial staff comprises three fiction editors, three nonfiction editors, one online reviews editor, and one reviews director. Four men, four women. Not that the latter stat is relevant, since women are just as capable of unconscious bias as men are.
(no subject) - [info]orlacarey - Nov. 9th, 2009 06:04 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]jimhines - Nov. 9th, 2009 06:41 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]onceuponafaun wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:45 pm (UTC)
I believe that the problem is that most of the books that are highly hyped, pushed by the publishing companies, well advertised and supported are by male authors. I believe I've read an article to that effect, though of course I can't find it. If only male authors are hyped and supported by their publishing companies, then naturally any list of the most hyped books of the year will be by men.

What this list should have woken up is a notice to the publishing companies that they're promoting very unequally. News outlets can hardly be blamed for this.
[info]barbarienne wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:53 pm (UTC)
Yes, this. There almost certainly is a hidden bias in the judges, but they are further subjected to the bias in the editors.

It's entirely possible that the judges were perfectly neutral, but the selection pool was radically weighted in favor of the boys. (This is, of course, highly implausible, and the more reasonable explanation is that both pool and judges have biases.)
[info]rosefox wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:52 pm (UTC)
I'm one of the staffers who compiled the list. I can't really comment on it or reveal anything about our process, but I can certainly confirm Ms. Ermelino's mention of our meetings about the list being argumentative and contentious on several levels. (Among other things, I was the one "kicking and screaming" for a genre book to make the cut.)

Those who know me well probably have some idea of how I personally feel about this, but I'm afraid I'm constrained from discussing those feelings in public.
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:54 pm (UTC)
Thanks, Rose. I understand it's not something you can really get into in a public forum, but I appreciate the confirmation of Ms. Ermelino's account. As well as your efforts to get a genre book onto the list :-)
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Re: a secret process? - [info]rosefox - Nov. 10th, 2009 07:37 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]janni wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 05:53 pm (UTC)
If they'd simply said, "This really surprised us, and while we see no way to create a more balanced list now without doing it badly, we're going to spend the next year examining the assumptions that led us to create such a list, and to try to think more about our biases in the coming year," then I might actually have had a little respect for the whole business, you know?

The defensiveness instead ... just looks bad. Really bad.
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:47 pm (UTC)
Defensiveness often does. I can understand that gut reaction to defend yourself against this sort of accusation, but it almost always makes things worse.

I would have had a *lot* of respect had they chosen to go the route you suggested. (Even more if they actually followed through...)
[info]jtglover wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:11 pm (UTC)
Taste is subjective and murky, and "favorites" are so very, very closely tied to "favoritism" when made public. I think it's an interesting exercise to pick favorites at any given time--what people most enjoyed reading--but I think it would be productive to drop "best" from the equation, unless included in the phrase "like best," because that's what it comes down to, even if editors, listmakers, or tastemakers feel otherwise. Claiming otherwise is fine if you're divine, but for the rest of us mortals, well...
[info]sylvia_rachel wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:55 pm (UTC)
Yes: it's the framing of the list that bothers me rather than the content per se. Tell us what your favourite books were, by all means; if all of them are by boys, I may suspect you lack imagination or a sense of adventure in your reading, but I won't be angry with you. But don't say THE BEST when what you really mean -- and, given the inherent subjectivity of such an exercise in the first place, all you can mean -- is "the ones we really liked".

The other thing I find really interesting about all these lists is that out of dozens and dozens of books, I've heard of maybe three or four and read, as far as I can tell, not a single one. And I do read quite a bit (two or three books a week on average, I would guess).
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[info]cathshaffer wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:40 pm (UTC)
Okay, it has been said before and it must be said again...but the list sucks. As far as I can tell, 5 out of the ten books, a full FIFTY PERCENT, are books of literary fiction. Most people don't like literary fiction. Most people find it dead boring, with the variation that literary fiction is often depressing as well as boring. Several of the other titles fall into the category of narrative nonfiction. So I think we have some clues here. I don't think it's a stretch to say this is a list of books that would please English majors. Given the politics in most university English departments, I think that ending up with an all-male list is something that should be at least a bit embarrassing.
[info]sylvia_rachel wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:57 pm (UTC)
I dunno -- I was an English major at university, and I've never even heard of any of the books on that first list.

Of course, I spent as much of my degree as I possibly could reading Old English poetry and Renaissance drama, so I'm perhaps not quite their target demographic either ;)
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[info]buffysquirrel wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:42 pm (UTC)
Imagine the fuss if the list had been all *women*.

It's hard to believe that a list produced by a gender-blind process would end up all one gender.
[info]onceuponafaun wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 06:53 pm (UTC)
Oh exactly. A list of all women authors would have immediately around suspicions of pandering. No one minds pandering to men though, that's pretty much how the media works.
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[info]p_sunshine wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 07:03 pm (UTC)
Way to throw a match, Jim. =)
Maybe I should go home and count how many female and male authors I have on my bookshelves and find out how my personal buying habits tally. I've never really thought about buying by gender, but this post makes me curious about my own preferences.
I'm curious which books didn't make their top ten. I'm guessing "Her Fearful Symmetry" was the literary ghost story, but I'd like to know what the cookbook and the sci-fi book were.
I'm glad that they were disturbed by the final result and were confident enough to say that they were disturbed by it. I'd like to see what their determining factors were; if there was anything in them that somehow skewed toward the male writers, and if it was, what it was, because it's just as much a stereotype to say that male writers write about x subject in x manner and females don't.
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 07:08 pm (UTC)
I consider myself nice and egalitarian, but a friend of mine was doing a survey a while back and asked us to take a poll of our last four books read, and I was very surprised to discover they were all by male authors.

Looking at a larger sample of my reading, I *think* that was a statistical fluke, but I'm glad for the reality check.

I do know my choices skew heavily toward white authors, which is an area where I'm working to broaden my reading.

And yeah, like you, I'd be very curious to know what sort of criteria were used to compile that final list.
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[info]saanen wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 07:07 pm (UTC)
Maybe all the really good books by women are being published in November and December of 2009. You know, after the "best of 2009" books list was released.

(I'm not sure if they do this list every year and if they consider books from November of the previous year to October of the current year or something like that. If so, I retract my sarcasm. Most of it, anyway.)
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 07:14 pm (UTC)
Their Best Books of 2008 came out 11/3/08, so yeah, I think it's a recurring thing. Weird, though.
ARC's - [info]kilks401 - Nov. 9th, 2009 07:26 pm (UTC) Expand
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[info]sixteenbynine wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 07:46 pm (UTC)
I went back over the list twice, and I realized something. This sounds like a list of books as compiled by people too far inside the book industry to really separate their own tastes from what might be worth reading or not reading.

The male/female breakdown might be a part of that.
[info]blpurdom wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 07:56 pm (UTC)
Oddly enough, the original reason for having separate Best Actor and Best Actress categories for the Academy Awards was because many more roles went to men and so there was a worry that women would never be recognized at all at awards time, so the categories were set up to avoid that. However, I don't think that that would be the best solution here (a list of best books by men and best books by women) because our culture is already hung up enough on gender and unfriendly to people who are trans or gender-queer; it would definitely be a step backward. (And even though most women in film and theatre call themselves "actors" these days and don't care for the word "actress" I don't think anyone is proposing to do away with the gender-specific categories due to the continuation of the imbalance of roles for men vs. roles for women.)

Instead, I have to say that, as a reader, I simply find the lists by genre much more useful than a list that's supposed to be a general collection of best books of the year, of any kind. Others have already weighed in on the quality of the books on the list, so I won't, but I think the inherent problem with it is that you simply CAN'T say that those ten books are the best of the year, by anyone, about anything, because of a) the incredibly small group of people deciding this, b) the self-selected nature of the incredibly small group of people deciding this, and c) the determination of the incredibly small group of people deciding this not to reveal any information about the selection criteria. If we don't know what they usually like, we don't have any way of knowing how and why these books were selected. And that can make a huge difference, in addition to the tiny sample size of the group.

In fact, I don't see the point to the list at all when you've got the other lists by genre, which are more diverse and just generally more useful to most readers because no one really goes to a book store and asks a customer service rep, "What are the best books that have come out this month?" The customer service rep will want to know, "Well, what do you like to read?" And then the rep will help the customer find a book by genre.

That's what it's all about, really. Those may be the best 10 books to people who like to read what those people like to read. But that's not a Best Ten for everyone, not by a long shot, and pretending otherwise is just ridiculous. Plus they've made themselves targets of another GenderFail controversy for no good reason, even though they did recognize ahead of time that the shit could hit the fan because of the list.

I'm going to call that "BrainFail".
[info]houseboatonstyx wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 08:38 pm (UTC)
In haste....

This seems like a good time to look for factors further back in the pipeline -- whose correction would have a greater and longer impact. Do agents and editors choose to publish more books by men, or the kind of books that are supposedly more often written and read by men? If so, why?

Short-term, it might be helpful to choose contest judging panels including some women of the school of le Guin or Russ. If they agree with the male judges, that's a sign that there may be problems further back.
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 09:00 pm (UTC)
It's a systemic issue, yes. And any individual will have no problem pointing to someone else in the industry, or another part of the process, and putting the blame there. I just wish someone would start accepting some responsibility instead of spending so much time and energy trying to dodge it.
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[info]bondo_ba wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 08:55 pm (UTC)
Well, my questions would be, in order:

1) Do they have a history of doing this kind of thing?
2) Is the panel of judges gender neutral?
3) Are there other factors involved (maybe the problem is the publishing industry not publishing enough books of that sort by women or something else entirely)?

Yes, the chances against it are astronomical, but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt until some kind of bias can be shown. I actually think it's kind of cool in this PC day and age (even I'm guilty of being PC now and then!) that they recognized the coming firestorm and yet stood by their choices. Refreshing.
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 08:59 pm (UTC)
1. Don't know
2. Yes
3. Probably

It's amazing how these million-to-one chances seem to crop up nine times out of ten, isn't it? (Exaggerating the numbers for the sake of the Pratchett reference, but hopefully the point is still there.)
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[info]rachel_swirsky wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 09:27 pm (UTC)
"Nobody’s asking for quotas."

I don't ask for quotas, necessarily -- but I note that when the gender ratio turns up more women than men, I suddenly hear many of the anti-quota people starting to sound quota-friendly.

Sigh.
[info]maevele wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 09:51 pm (UTC)
LETTUCE! LETTUCE IN MY COPY PAPER!
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 10:24 pm (UTC)
Won't someone please think of the kumquats???
[info]bearmountain wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 10:03 pm (UTC)
Or, by putting out a controversial list, they actually got more attention. That list and story is like a virus all over the blogs and the authors have to be happy because their names are attached almost every time (if not repeated, linked to.)
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 10:23 pm (UTC)
True, this sort of thing certainly builds the online buzz, at least in certain circles.
[info]stillnotbored wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 10:48 pm (UTC)
I wish this was the first and only time. I wish I could say this was a fluke.

I wish I was surprised.

None of the above applies. And as it happens again and again, with award lists and TOCs, I reach outrage overload. I wonder each and every time why women still don't have a level playing field, and what it will take to make that happen.

Talent obviously isn't enough. The glass ceiling is still there, they just hung a few plants and adjusted the lights so that you don't notice until you smack right into it.

Then I go back to writing, because really, other than a troop of ninjas and a case of C4, I'm not sure how we can shatter that sucker.
[info]jimhines wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 11:23 pm (UTC)
I am intrigued by your ninja plan, and would like to send a donation.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Nov. 10th, 2009 11:09 am (UTC) Expand
[info]burger_eater wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 11:28 pm (UTC)
Their Best 100 Books of 2009 list is better, but I'm on it, so I'm not exactly unbiased.
[info]b_writes wrote:
Nov. 10th, 2009 07:40 pm (UTC)
I think a bigger list, for these kinds of purposes, is almost always better, too. 10 is a really small number, considering especially how diverse fiction really is.
(no subject) - [info]burger_eater - Nov. 11th, 2009 12:19 am (UTC) Expand
[info]stacia_kane wrote:
Nov. 9th, 2009 11:37 pm (UTC)
Oh, Jim, I love you, I really do.

The very idea that a group of people sat down, looked at the list they'd made, saw it was all men--and, as I've said in other places, not just all men, but all books ABOUT men and generally aimed at a male audience--shrugged, and said, "Well, gee, I guess no women wrote good books this year. Oh well, nothing we can do about that," is ridiculous.

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