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LC on Rape and Self Defense

Snoopy

So apparently Miss Nevada said something about the importance of awareness and self-defense for women, some people responded with varying degrees of anger on Twitter, and Larry Correia chose to respond with a blog post called “The Naive Idiocy of Teaching Rapists Not To Rape.”

I’m not gonna waste a lot of time here, and I’ll preface this by noting that as someone who studies and teaches self-defense, I have nothing against people learning to protect themselves.

  1. Self-defense isn’t and can’t be the only answer. If it is, we’re basically telling everyone who isn’t physically or emotionally capable of fighting off every attacker, no matter how much power that attacker might have over them, that they’re on their own. Sucks to be them, eh?
  2. How many self-defense courses teach that you’re vastly more likely to be raped by a friend, acquaintance, or loved one? How many courses actually prepare you to use the kind of force you need to use against someone you like or love?
  3. To LC’s claim that rape culture is a myth and we’re just dealing with individual, isolated criminals, and that all of those studies have been debunked (in which he omitted any links or citations to the alleged debunking … strange, considering how grumpy he is about people supposedly “ignoring reality”):
  4. Finally, on the “naive idiocy” of teaching men not to rape, I’m gonna just quote from an old blog post:

Correia is right that there are a lot of different kinds of predators out there. When it comes to sexual assault, the majority of them are men, and they’re far more likely to be someone the victim knows. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, yet for as long as I’ve been working with rape survivors and speaking out about rape, there have been countless people insisting that the Only True Solution is to turn all women into gun-toting ninjas.

I don’t understand the fear some people — again, this seems to be primarily men — have when it comes to looking at other solutions. Instead of reading the research, they just proclaim that education will never work, because reasons. They ignore the pervasiveness of rape myths, the myriad approaches to things like bystander intervention, the utterly broken way our legal system treats rape, and all of the other factors that contribute to the prevalence of rape in our society.

There’s nothing new in LC’s rant. It’s the same attitude we’ve seen for ages, an attitude that conveniently puts the burden on victims to end rape, oversimplifies the problem, and allows the rest of us to look away and pretend there isn’t a real or widespread problem here, despite countless studies showing otherwise.

Some of you are aware of the current conversation in SF/F fandom about several Big Names who sexually assaulted hundreds of children, and how fandom stood by and let it happen, despite there being multiple eyewitnesses to these assaults. Call me a naive idiot, but I wonder how many children would have escaped those assaults if others in fandom had intervened or reported them or enforced any kind of consequences, anything to teach the perpetrators that this kind of behavior was unacceptable.

I wonder how many victims we’re continuing to turn our back on today because we assume there’s no point in doing anything to intervene.

Mirrored from Jim C. Hines.

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Comments

( 48 comments — Leave a comment )
6_penny
Jun. 18th, 2014 02:42 pm (UTC)
And the same ranters when meeting a facsimile of said ninja-woman would be rabid about how unnatural and unfeminine - and probably ungodly she was.
So many idiots ...
aulus_poliutos
Jun. 18th, 2014 04:22 pm (UTC)
Actually, you can hear that from women, too. "Did you need to hit him so hard?" was what I got from one woman watching when the police dragged what remained of that wannabe rapist into the ambulance. In my case it was the proverbial stranger out of the bushes, and I was lucky that I had the mental and physical strength to deal with the situation. Thus I'd say self defense courses are surely not a bad idea (personally, I didn't take a special course, but it may help if you don't have a father like mine who taught me both some fighting tricks and self confidence).

But of course, the evil has to be treated at its roots for society to change.
maladaptive
Jun. 18th, 2014 05:02 pm (UTC)
I did a self-defense course at my women's college (RAD, I think?) taught by police, and I'm sure the fact that it was a women's school gave it a very different tone (i.e., there was a lot of attention on "it's probably someone you know" with lots of "here are ways to get out of likely holds if a guy friend holds you down.")

One of the big points made, that really struck me coming from a cop, was "if you have martial arts training, don't tell the officer. If you do, it's likely to turn into a conversation about how you attacked the guy and almost certainly cast you in some suspicion."
tylik
Jun. 19th, 2014 11:59 am (UTC)
Eh. I'm a tall, muscular, martial artist and martial arts instructor. I've gotten almost no in person pushback or discussion of perceived lack of femininity. An lot of guys go out of their ways to tell me, often in really inappropriate ways, how sexy they find it.

There are a few guys who have a well developed reputations for being overbearing loudmouth blowhards who have always been pretty much silent in my presence. (There seems to be a correlation with folks who feel compelled to blog about "What does it mean to be a man?" and the like.)

Yeah, really, the closest I can think of about complaints about my femininity involved one loser I dated. If he said something really offensive, I'd point out that it was really offensive. And then he'd tell me that what I should do isn't point it out, but cry so that he could comfort me.
wintersillusion
Jun. 18th, 2014 03:08 pm (UTC)
Well said. I could go on a rant about how the prevalence of rape culture and stupid comments make me feel, but it would just be rehashing what so many women have said before me and much better too. It is so fantastic, though, to know that I'm not alone and to know that there are men out there, such as yourself, who don't buy into that crap. Thanks for that!
deborahblakehps
Jun. 18th, 2014 03:16 pm (UTC)
ARGH.
sirriamnis
Jun. 18th, 2014 03:18 pm (UTC)
Well, add another reason to my list of myriad reasons not to read Larry Correia.

Whenever anyone insists that rape is natural or your can't keep men from raping, it makes me wonder about their own actions in the past and exactly why they're so terrified of men having to take responsibility for their own actions.
harvey_rrit
Jun. 18th, 2014 04:20 pm (UTC)
As a means of coping with the horror I am currently experiencing from reading this precis-- I am NOT going to read the article-- my brain turned up a study I read about back in the 70s or 80s:

Convicted rapists surveyed in prison said they never masturbated on the outside. Never. Zero point zero percent.

Now, whether or not they were telling the truth, it seems to me that men who mock the concept of masturbation are a damn sight more likely to commit rape. Pointing that out in sex-ed might do some kind of good.
misslynx
Jun. 19th, 2014 02:03 pm (UTC)
Convicted rapists surveyed in prison said they never masturbated on the outside. Never. Zero point zero percent.

Do you have a source for that?
harvey_rrit
Jun. 19th, 2014 03:41 pm (UTC)
I don't even have a year for that.

Sorry. If my brain had an index on top of everything else I'd have no personality. Just data.
rimrunner
Jun. 18th, 2014 04:23 pm (UTC)
How many self-defense courses teach that you’re vastly more likely to be raped by a friend, acquaintance, or loved one?

The first one I ever took did this, and it's something that's at least been discussed with everyone I've studied with since then. I didn't realize until later how unusual this was.
mt_yvr
Jun. 18th, 2014 04:25 pm (UTC)
I will never understand how this line of thinking isn't more insulting to men. I mean in effect it says : men can't be taught. Or... another spin is : men can't control themselves. Or... men are incapable of overcoming their biology.

Which. Just funny as hell.

Because this ALL frames the conversation as if men have a biological imperative to rape and they simply can't overcome that. Despite the issue really not being about that at all, the people who decry education and "Hey, want to stop rape? Don't rape, then." messaging as ineffectual are pretty much saying that men/some men are just born that way and "oops, oh well."

Which on the face of it, pretty much undoes the whole "Civilization" thing we got going as we apparently must allow people to just be who they are born to be no matter how violent or psychotic they are. Of course my own hobby horse pops up here and I wonder if the same people think that we homos should be just shrugged at and left alone?

Proooobably not.

(head desk) Gods, humans are a weird species.
dionysus1999
Jun. 18th, 2014 04:45 pm (UTC)
Well said. I find the notion that men can't control themselves to be very offensive.
sylvia_rachel
Jun. 20th, 2014 12:15 am (UTC)
I agree, it's absolutely insulting to men.

I think though that the people making the argument don't see it that way, and here's my theory as to why: the same people who like to argue that teaching boys/men not to rape is "naïve idiocy" ALSO like to argue that there's no such thing as rape culture and that rape is committed by "individual imbeciles" and "individual evil scumbags" -- in other words, Not All Men -- which allows them to pretend that they're not saying what they are in fact saying.

That's one of my theories, anyway.

And in fact I think people who study this stuff have found that in a given group of people it's not *lots of guys committing the occasional rape* but usually *a few guys committing a lot of rapes* ... and getting away with it because most of the people around them have absorbed the idea that sex is something men take from women, rather than something people agree to do together.
jimhines
Jun. 20th, 2014 12:18 am (UTC)
There is evidence that a lot of rapes are committed by serial rapists. But studies also find a disturbing number of men admitting to attempting or committing rape at least once.
starcat_jewel
Jun. 20th, 2014 02:42 am (UTC)
Paradoxical as it sounds, both of those statements are true. A disturbing number of men -- around 1 in 20, at a conservative estimate (I've seen estimates as high as 1 in 7) will self-report attempting or committing rape as long as the word "rape" is not used and only the behavior described.

Within that group, there is a sub-minority of about 10% to 15% who commit lots and lots of rapes. The average, as I recall, is around 3 -- but the men in this sub-group may self-report attempting/committing 20 or more rapes. For them, it is their standard method of obtaining sex.
redbird
Jun. 18th, 2014 04:36 pm (UTC)
If Correia and his ilk really believe both that rape is bad and that (at least some) men can't be taught not to rape, they should specifically be working to create "here is how to kill or permanently disable a man who attempts to rape you" and advocating an extension to "stand your ground" laws to make it legal to kill at attempted rapist. Not just "oh, you should have a gun" but "it is a morally virtuous act to shoot any man who tries to rape you, even your best friend's brother, even your husband."

And, for the less violently-inclined, to tattoo "RAPIST" in large unfriendly letters on the faces of convicted rapists, so everyone will know to avoid them. If you can't teach certain people not to rape, maybe it's time to teach the rest of us who to avoid.

Somehow, that's not what happens: the rape culture defenders don't want anyone publicly identifying the rapists and attempted rapists.
harvey_rrit
Jun. 19th, 2014 03:46 pm (UTC)
I like these ideas. Extremely.
sylviamcivers
Jun. 19th, 2014 06:42 pm (UTC)
That's the first time I heard this logical conclusion.
But it won't work.

Becaue the people who say 'can't teach men not to rape' might have fantasys of their own, and don't want to take the risk that some day they might be proved NOT the mighty he-men they think they are.
starcat_jewel
Jun. 18th, 2014 06:15 pm (UTC)
Shorter Larry Correia: (1) Rape is like the weather -- it just happens, and nobody can do anything about it. (2) So don't teach men what rape is and how not to rape -- just encourage them to rape someone ELSE.

Because that's what "self-defense for women" is really about. It's about not being the slowest gazelle when the leopard comes.

(Which is not to say that this is a bad thing; there are a lot of things we do every day with the goal of "not being the low-hanging fruit", such as locking our car doors, or not leaving valuable items on our office desks. But a locked car door won't deter a sufficiently determined or professional thief, and relying on "self-defense" alone won't deter a sufficiently determined or professional rapist either.)
tylik
Jun. 19th, 2014 12:01 pm (UTC)
Yes, exactly. I don't have to be faster than the bear, I only have to be faster than you.

I think it goes along swimmingly with the mythology that rape is a penalty imposed by society for women who don't stay within the appropriate bounds of femininity.
tzaddi_93
Jun. 19th, 2014 01:02 pm (UTC)
Reminds me of the t-shirt that says, "When the zombies come, I'm tripping you."
misslynx
Jun. 19th, 2014 02:39 pm (UTC)
just encourage them to rape someone ELSE.

Because that's what "self-defense for women" is really about.


I've been hearing this a lot lately, and it really bothers me. Maybe because I'm older than a lot of the people who are having this discussion, but when I was in my teens and 20s, women knowing how to defend ourselves was considered a good thing by most feminists, and it was very common for women's organizations, rape crisis centres, etc. to offer self-defense classes, or at least encourage women to take them. This was not, at the time, seen as letting rapists off the hook for their actions, or as something to be done instead of trying to stop rape altogether - it was seen as just part of the picture.

Now it seems to have been reframed as something intrinsically anti-feminist, where if you learn how to defend yourself, you're basically offering up other women to be raped, and are therefore a backstabbing anti-feminist traitor. Apparently we are supposed to be collectively challenging rape culture and holding men accountable, while individually staying passive and helpless. Women are being guilted out of learning what to me seems like a basic life skill, because people react like rabid dogs every time the topic of self-defense is even mentioned, and that's really disturbing to me.

I should add, I don't mean that that's happening right here - Jim mentioned in the original post that he has nothing against self-defense and actually teaches it, and you said in your last paragraph above that there are a lot of other things we do in order to not be the "low-hanging fruit". But it's the feeling I've gotten from the tone of the discussion in a lot of other places. Everyone gets angry the moment self-defense is mentioned at all, as if it's somehow kryptonite to all other anti-rape efforts, with its presence automatically negating anything else that may be being done to challenge rape on a societal level.

Back when I was actively learning it (I almost typed "in my day" - I'm starting to feel like I should be typing this from a rocking chair while thumping my cane on the floor and muttering about "kids these days"), teaching and learning self-defense was seen as something that was empowering to all women, because the more of us that learned it, passed on what we'd learned, and encouraged others to pursue it, the stronger we all became, and the more men would have to realize that women are not passive victims - that we were strong, that we could stand up for ourselves, and that we weren't taking any more shit. The idea then was that when any of us get stronger, we all get stronger, because we all encourage, support and inspire each other.

I'm not sure exactly when that shifted to it being somehow something that worked against other women, but it's a shift I find very unsettling. I'm all for educating men not to rape, holding them accountable for their actions, and challenging rape culture as a whole. But it's not an either/or.
jimhines
Jun. 19th, 2014 02:58 pm (UTC)
I don't know that the attitude is that self-defense itself is something that works against other women so much as the exclusive focus on self-defense as the One and Only Answer is something that doesn't help women as a whole, because it doesn't stop rape so much as it encourages rapists to find a different target.

Don't get me wrong. If someone wants to assault me, I'm going to do everything I can to make them look elsewhere. But when we see so much emphasis on self-defense and so little attention -- or outright mockery -- of other rape prevention efforts, I think it makes sense to point out that self-defense doesn't fix the larger problem.

Does that make sense? And obviously, I'm only speaking for myself and my own understanding here.
starcat_jewel
Jun. 19th, 2014 05:25 pm (UTC)
as if it's somehow kryptonite to all other anti-rape efforts

This is exactly how it is presented by rape apologists like Larry Correia. "Don't bother trying to teach rapists not to rape, that's just naive! What we NEED here is for women to learn how to defend themselves!" This feeds neatly into the victim-bashing paradigm; obviously, if she never learned self-defense*, why then it's her own damn fault she was raped.

The problem isn't with women learning self-defense, it's with the attitude that this is the ONLY thing needed to solve the problem. It's the "rape is like the weather" thing -- if you didn't bring an umbrella and you got wet, then don't complain. It's rape apologists encouraging women to throw each other under the bus instead of actually addressing the problem (because, in case you haven't noticed, it's not just men who are quick to blame rape victims for Doin It Rong).

Leaning self-defense is a good thing, if a woman wants to do that. My issue is with the notion that it's a REQUIREMENT -- one more in a long list of requirements that women are supposed to fulfill (all simultaneously, even when some of them are mutually contradictory) -- not "to prevent herself from being raped" because nothing will deter a sufficiently determined predator, but to minimize the chances that she will be BLAMED for having been raped.

because the more of us that learned it, passed on what we'd learned, and encouraged others to pursue it, the stronger we all became, and the more men would have to realize that women are not passive victims - that we were strong, that we could stand up for ourselves, and that we weren't taking any more shit

This is the "more guns, less crime" argument in a different form. If predators don't know which potential victim might have had self-defense training**, they theoretically become less likely to attack women in general. Do I need to elaborate on the difference between theory and practice?

What we need is a multi-pronged approach to the problem, not one more one-size-fits-all thing that holds women responsible for the actions of men. Self-defense is no substitute for teaching about consent and teaching that women are people.


* Not to mention if she froze up in shock, or simply couldn't bring herself to maim/kill her uncle or pastor or neighbor or boss or date or husband.

** Most predators can take a damned good guess, based on body language. Or they just drug her drink. All the self-defense classes in the world won't help a woman with a system full of roofies.
tylik
Jun. 19th, 2014 08:33 pm (UTC)
I'm a martial artist and martial arts instructor. I'm all for people who are interested learning self defense, and for that matter, defense of others.

But I hate it being presented as a systemic solution. I mean, sure, when your society is well and truly fucked, it's damned useful. And in plenty of other situations. For many individuals, it's a great option. It's also not an option, or not a good one, for many people. And if we're going to talk about making a serious societal difference on rape, I don't think it's where we need the most work.

Especially since every asshole rape apologist goes one about he's going to make sure his daughter studies karate. Because, y'know, men, they're just like that.
northernwalker
Jun. 18th, 2014 06:47 pm (UTC)
I've been reading the testimony from that current conversation and it is horrifying at the amount of ignoring that happened on the part of people who just didn't want to know, even when it was happening five feet away.
starcat_jewel
Jun. 19th, 2014 01:05 am (UTC)
That conversation doesn't appear to be going on where I am. I'm not sure I want to know, but I probably should be aware of it. Are there some keywords I can Google for?
jimhines
Jun. 19th, 2014 01:06 am (UTC)
starcat_jewel
Jun. 19th, 2014 01:59 am (UTC)
Thank you. I had heard about this (but only in the last few years, and from a distance), but I hadn't seen the current discussion.
marzipan_pig
Jun. 18th, 2014 07:16 pm (UTC)
How many self-defense courses teach that you’re vastly more likely to be raped by a friend, acquaintance, or loved one? How many courses actually prepare you to use the kind of force you need to use against someone you like or love?

I've had this mentioned in self-defense classes, that it could be someone you really care about so it may be psychologically difficult to do whatever blah blah blah disabling maneuver.

The same class had us practice *being in other people's space* as they said various degrees of no as a way to understand the mindset of an attacker (in an acting-out-in-class way and just standing really close). This was really eyeopening to me re how much of an adrenaline rush/weird sense of power I got from it, it really rattled me up how much I would even say I enjoyed it.
jimhines
Jun. 18th, 2014 07:18 pm (UTC)
From discussion on Twitter, it sounds like a good number of self-defense courses aimed specifically at women do get into this information and practice, which is a good thing.
RDGuthrie
Jun. 18th, 2014 08:18 pm (UTC)
Gun safety courses?
I'm glad that self-defense courses are bringing this up, but how many gun safety courses mention that the rapist a woman may have to shoot could be the father of her children, or a long-term boyfriend, or a family member? It's one thing to cause pain, or to put a drunk husband in some kind of martial arts hold, and quite another to put a bullet through him.
thedragonweaver
Jun. 19th, 2014 03:10 am (UTC)
Re: Gun safety courses?
I do know that a number of women who are escaping abuse take gun safety classes to up their survival stats. Specifically, they take the course, get the permit, and then explicitly inform the abuser (usually under a restraining order that he's dancing around the edges of) that they are armed.

Usually that's enough to stop the stalking, for some odd reason. But then, somebody who has managed to pull out of the abuse cycle and escape has already overcome the worst of the psychological hurdles.
misslynx
Jun. 19th, 2014 02:12 pm (UTC)
The self-defense course I took back when I was in university did emphasize that. And they distinguished between what they called "soft" and "hard" self-defense techniques, with the former being things that would get you out of a hold and/or cause the attacker some temporary pain or discomfort, but not risk seriously injuring or killing them, and the latter being things that could break bones or otherwise cause serious damage. They taught about equal numbers of both types of techniques, and repeatedly reminded us that we were more likely to be sexually assaulted, or even just sexually harassed, by friends, partners, relatives, etc. than by strangers, so there would likely be times when we might want to send a clear "Back off - if you keep trying to do this, it is NOT going to go well for you!" signal, without actually putting the person in the hospital.

They also talked a fair bit about mental/emotional aspects of self-defense - building confidence, not being afraid to say a definite NO when you want to, not feeling like you had to always "be nice" or placate men, etc. And about how knowing that you can defend yourself physically if you have to can make it easier to be assertive verbally, and make you less likely to be intimidated or guilted into things. I found that part really, really, helpful, since I was at the time a shy, geeky 20-year-old (or thereabouts) who tended to freeze like a rabbit in the headlights of a car every time any social interaction because frightening or challenging.
sylviamcivers
Jun. 19th, 2014 07:01 pm (UTC)
Getting Close and Just Say No
Getting into someone else's space is something polite people Just Don't Do - it's really weird for over-socialized people to be told to do it, on purpose, without apologizing, and in fact telling someone very firmly "NO".


aggressive = "you bitch" = "not ladylike"

Go on, folks, channel your inner Queen Ynci!
starcat_jewel
Jun. 20th, 2014 05:57 pm (UTC)
Re: Getting Close and Just Say No
Your response to my comment about the unreliability of "false rape accusations" isn't showing up in the thread. But here's another item for your collection. This woman was not only accused of making a false report, but jailed for it. And then to add insult to injury, after a serial rapist admitted to attacking her, her lawsuit for false arrest was dismissed!
jimhines
Jun. 20th, 2014 05:59 pm (UTC)
Re: Getting Close and Just Say No
Two comments had gotten caught in the spam filter. Don't know if that was one of them, but I've freed them both.
sinnamongirl
Jun. 19th, 2014 01:55 am (UTC)
Awhile ago on Jezebel I read the greatest sentence, something like, "Consent isn't the absence of a no, it's the presence of a yes."

I've been having real weird conversations with one of my best friends recently; he's all agitated about "all" the false rape accusations out there and, despite being a lawyer and therefore supposedly good at making logical connections, seems to correlate "all" those well-publicized false accusations with some statistical number showing that indeed "many" or maybe even "most" rapes are therefore false. He also goes into the "just teach women how to say no" argument quite a bit, and does recognize legal situations wherein someone isn't able to give consent, but he at baseline seems to think that women generally are taught to use the threat of a rape accusation as a way to keep men in check.

Overall, it's very disappointing to me, but seems to link up to what you've written above, in that some people don't see this is a violence issue, they see it as a power issue in some way. And of course there's a lot of under-reported rape out there so it's hard to get a grasp of the situation at large, and my hope is that simple lessons like "get a yes" catch on. Ask permission. Self-defense is good, too, though even taking a few years of aikido didn't stop my ex-boyfriend; he was simply too much bigger than me for me to stop him doing anything, but since I didn't scream or fight back (which I don't feel I have to justify, my boyfriend was raping me, I was in shock it was happening in the first place), he feels it was "a little rough" and not rape.

I am, though, really glad to see this issue coming out and being discussed, even if the discussions can be frankly discouraging and even frustrating, and I appreciate your and others' support for this issue.
starcat_jewel
Jun. 19th, 2014 05:02 am (UTC)
One thing I point out to people who are all bent about ALL THOSE FALSE ACCUSATIONS is that when a woman does try to report a rape, a tremendous amount of pressure is put on her to back off, to not press charges. Pressure from the cops, from her friends (especially those who also know the perp) and family, from random people she doesn't even know. And every woman who can be pressured or bullied into dropping the charges... becomes another "false accusation" statistic. Those numbers (which are not very high in the first place -- no higher than the number of false reports for any other crime) are artificially inflated by this aspect of the rape culture.
sinnamongirl
Jun. 19th, 2014 05:12 am (UTC)
That's a very good point, and one I finally thought to bring up to my friend just the other day. Of the people I told*, only 1 was actively supportive, the rest either ignored it, or a few basically said I shouldn't try to pass myself off as anything but a drunken slut. I'm not sure he connected what I was saying to the fact that by perpetuating the "false rape" charge as a statistical probability, he was essentially participating in that pressure. I mean, it's weird to me he can be sympathetic to me, but not use that as one of the many, many examples of how people are pressured to not tell, to drop it, to not 'ruin' someone's life, or told they deserved it in some way**... or whatever. If you don't mind, I'm going to mark this comment to myself so I can look at it again later, because I think you phrased the idea very neatly and it might be able to help me.

*This would be the first time; the more recent time I told nobody until it erupted in a weird way about a year later (i.e. last summer), but this particular friend still doesn't know about the second/more recent time. Because rape is a weird thing to talk about.

**And of course the pressure put on men in sexual matters can be surreal as well; I've seen guys put down other guys for complaining about unwanted sexual advances because apparently (straight) men should be grateful for any scrap of physical contact bestowed by a woman? So feeling pressured or outright forced is somehow not manly? It's bewilderingly sad.
raktajinos
Jun. 19th, 2014 01:50 pm (UTC)
There was a girl in my high school who filed a sexual assault claim against one of the teachers and the entire community turned against her. The discussion didn't even really focus on the man, but more about his son. All everyone talked about what the 'little slut that ruined his family' and how bad it was for the man's son. It was outrageous.

The whole family eventually had to move out of the area and she dropped the charge.

So whenever I see women sticking it though, especially in high profile cases, I'm always impressed by their friggen strength. I'm not sure I could do it.
sylviamcivers
Jun. 20th, 2014 03:58 pm (UTC)
False "False Report" Report
In 2008, an 18-year-old woman in Seattle reported her rape - and was fined $500 for false reporting.
In 2011, after being 'liar liar' to the cops for years, her picture was found in a convicted rapist's photo stash.

I keep these articles on hand for this kind of argument - yes, it does come up that often :(

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022669813_lawsuitsettled1xml.html

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2011/04/15/woman-pays-for-reporting-a-rape/

sylviamcivers
Jun. 19th, 2014 07:10 pm (UTC)
False "False Report" Report
I keep this article tagged becaue this liar-liar business keeps popping back up.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022669813_lawsuitsettled1xml.html

tl;dr - a woman filed a rape report, the cops called her a liar and fined her $500 for wasting their time by filing a false report. The lying slut!

"D.M. - who was 18 at the time of the attack — was threatened with eviction unless she underwent counseling and stood in front of other program participants to say she had lied about being raped, according to court documents. "

Then, after years of being known to the cops as a liar, pix of her were found on a rapist's camera. Apparently, he's been raping women for years, becuase no one started a case, let alone prosecuted.


So yeah. False reports. Pht.
rantinan
Jun. 19th, 2014 03:51 am (UTC)
Wow. just.
He's been on my shit list ever since his attempts to make FDR into hitler, but this is the final nail in the shit coffin.
anglerfish07
Jun. 19th, 2014 08:39 am (UTC)
Thanks so much for posting this, Jim. So glad to see that someone *gets* it. Self defense is helpful, but it's not always going to stop rape. It's so sad and frustrating to see Larry Coreia being so victim blaming. His denial of rape culture is just unbelievable. *shakes head*
raktajinos
Jun. 19th, 2014 01:44 pm (UTC)
sigh.

And we can't even begin to count the men who do commit sexual assaults but are unaware of what they are doing. We don't teach enthusiastic consent - what it looks like, what is *isnt*, hell its such a common theme in movies to 'hit on the drunk girl' that there's no wonder that sort of behaviour is common.

The only answer we have is to educate men and for men to be the ones to do the teaching. And to teach what consent actually is.
haleyjuliet
Jun. 19th, 2014 05:42 pm (UTC)
Thank you for posting this
I agree with this is so many ways! Especially about how we [Americans] would rather just blame it on the woman for... any excuse instead of face the issue. If men (and some women too) weren't rapists, there wouldn't be rape. It doesn't have anything to do with the woman: whether or not she has taken 12 years of self-defense or if she covers every inch of her body. If men aren't taught that RAPE IS WRONG, then we won't see a decrease in the act itself.

And these statistics that you've posted, while they are helpful to understanding the problem, probably aren't accurate because many women don't actually admit or tell anyone about the act because people like LC come out and say that it's not the mans problem--so it must be the woman's. So, not only are people raped, they are brainwashed to believe that it's their own fault for some reason or another.

This has got to stop.

Thank you for sharing.
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